Becca Wright is a Here to Thrive listener! She is also a Behavior Therapist and a divorced Mom of two. This episode is Kate and Becca in conversation. While reflecting on her story of personal growth, Becca shares the impact and lessons she has taken from listening to Here to Thrive.
There is so much in here, and Becca’s story is one of hope and belief for anyone who might be struggling in a difficult relationship. Some points of note include:
- How Becca went from codependent to self-reliant
- How she planned her way out of her unhealthy marriage
- The steps she took to create a new life path for herself, after being completely financially dependent on her husband
- How she has cultivated self-love and personal growth over the last few years.
Becca then switches seats with Kate and asks her many of the things you might want to know, such as:
- What holiday’s Kate celebrates
- Why she changed her religion in adulthood
- How she knew her husband was the one
- Her favorite songs of 2020
You can find Becca on Instagram @BeccaLivesWell https://www.instagram.com/beccaliveswell/ or search for her private Facebook group: Miss Lives Well.
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Full Transcript: Episode 143 – Becca Wright & Kate in Conversation.
Becca: It’s like you work around it. There’s this — it is not a pebble in your shoe. It’s actually a rock in your shoe and it’s just there and you deal with that because you can manage life with this amount of pain until you can’t. And it took me a long time to say I can’t — which this is interesting. One of the things I learned about especially women with codependency and myself is that that resiliency, when you heal, you can change and turn it into something that’s more powerful and positive for yourself. Because when you put up with so much pain and hurt for something that’s not healthy for you, when you’re able to do that for something that is healthy for you it’s so magical and powerful.
Kate: Becca, thank you for joining me on Here To Thrive. I’m excited to talk with you and then have you. Well, like I gave you the instructions, interrogate me. So, this should be fun.
Becca: Yeah. Hi Kate. I am so excited to be here. It’s actually a “pinch me” moment to get to be able to talk to you.
Kate: Just to give you all some context, Becca Wright is a Here To Thrive listener and we started communicating on Instagram and she told me about how much of an impact Here To Thrive had had on her life and we thought it’d be kind of cool to talk it through with you. And then I thought there would be no one more perfect to interview me than a Here To Thrive listener because I really don’t know what you guys might want to ask me. So Becca, you’re responsible for the whole Here To Thrive community right now.
Becca: [giggles] Awesome. No pressure.
Kate: No pressure whatsoever. Let’s start a little bit with you and your journey. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and where you were a few years back?
Becca: Yeah. So, it starts for where I’m not right now. So today I’m in a place in life I never could have expected. I’m 34. I’m divorced. I’m living in an apartment with my teenage daughter, my ten-year old special needs son. I’m in Grad school. I’m working full time and recently, I had my mom move in with me. So, it’s definitely not what was expected in my plan for life and it’s actually such a blessing and I’m so grateful that I’m in this place, but it started from a few years ago actually when how I got here. I was living in Germany with my ex husband at that time. He’s — he — he’s a government contractor and so he had the opportunity to work internationally. We lived in Germany and Hawaii over the last ten years, so it wasn’t such a bad gig. And when we were in Hawaii, actually this was probably about five years ago, he had an affair. And that is where it started this long journey of discovery and worth and starting all over. That affair really rocked our world because we had to sell everything that we owned and moved back to Colorado. He wasn’t at that time willing to work on the marriage and — and decide if he wanted to actually stay and moved to Colorado with us. So, yeah. We sold everything that we — we owned, came back to Colorado, and it was a lot of uncertainty, a lot of unknown for those eight to nine months that we were living there. There wasn’t trust being built. He wouldn’t go to therapy. There wasn’t repair being happened and he had asked me if I wanted to move to Germany and I was — I was crushed by that because I had my whole sense of security already ripped from me and I just wanted to live in Colorado and have a home and — and just feel safe. And so his proposal for that I think was an escape of reality in wanting to face something. But I ended up saying “Okay, let’s go…” because I wasn’t ready to give up the relationship. I wasn’t ready to — I knew that if I didn’t go, if we stayed, we would have to break up our family and I’d have to figure how to do life on my own and I just — I was not ready to embrace that. So, I agreed to move to Germany and it was really, really difficult living there. Although it was — it was beautiful and amazing to get to travel and experience this other culture and we traveled to so many incredible places and I’m very grateful for the opportunity, however living there was really difficult especially given our circumstances. Our marriage was not in a good place. I had a special needs child and so getting access to therapy and services for both our marriage and then also my kiddo was — it just made everything really, really difficult. And I remember there was this day like very vividly, I think it was a Saturday, he was in our bedroom folding laundry and I just walked in and I said I want a divorce. I’m done. And it was the first time I actually said the word divorce, like “I want a divorce.” The D word [chuckles] and I was just very clear about it and matter of fact. And he just kind of said okay. I don’t think he took me seriously in that moment and it was definitely not a just one and done kind of thing. That in itself was a journey. I think of it as, you know, for an engagement you’re planning for a beginning. And it’s interesting because when a relationship ends and there’s a divorce, it’s the opposite. And I don’t know that there’s a word for it but there’s a process for ending a relationship especially when you’re in a marriage and you have kids, it doesn’t just happen suddenly. It — it’s a long process. And we were living in Germany so there was a lot of things to figure out so we knew we didn’t want to move the kids out of school. That would have been too much change, so we decided we’re going to stay in Germany for at least a year so the kids can finish school and then we both agreed that moving back home to Colorado would be in the best interest of everybody. Unluckily and not respect, we were always on the same page. That was I’m — I’m really grateful that there wasn’t arguing when it came to that. On that, we were always on the same page.
Kate: I’m super taken back by how all of this must have felt Becca in terms of just the grieving and the, like your saying, the dissolution of your marriage. But did that took, I’m assuming, years from the affair through to the heart break through to the moving to then already making the decision and having another year to co- habitate. Like, how did you survive that emotionally?
Becca: Oh man. Yeah. Grieving is right and when I look back on it when you see that, the grieving process for me was years because there wasn’t closure for so long. It was mental torture in a lot of ways. And when you don’t have the language, when you don’t have the language of gas lighting or narcissism and empath and codependency — when you don’t know those words you — you know in your heart that there’s something that’s not right that doesn’t feel good but you — because you can’t explain it, it’s almost like it’s just you and it’s in your head if that makes sense. So, once I started learning the language around that, that’s when the healing really was able to happen. I was able to explore oh what’s codependency? Oh what are attachment styles? Gas lighting? Emotional abuse? This is just as harmful, it’s invisible, and you can’t explain it to people but I’m really experiencing this, and that definitely happened for a long time. And what kept me there was fear. Fear of being alone, fear of I had financial dependence on him. I had fear of breaking up my family because I come from a household where I didn’t have parents that were married and I didn’t want to have that for my kids. I wanted everybody to be in the same household and grow up with what I didn’t have. So, I — that’s what kept me is the fear of those things. And I — it’s like you work around it, there’s this — it’s not a pebble in your shoe. It’s actually a rock in your shoe and it’s just there and you deal with that because you can manage life with this amount of pain until you can’t. And it took me a long time to say I can’t — which this is interesting. One of the things I learned about especially women with codependency and myself is that that resiliency, when you heal, all you can change and turn it into something that’s more powerful and positive for yourself. Because when you put up with so much pain and hurt for something that’s not healthy, for you when you’re able to do that for something that is healthy for you, it’s so magical and powerful.
Kate: That totally just makes my heart warm. I couldn’t agree more with that and I think it’s a really optimistic and hopeful way that other women I know right now Becca are listening to your story and feeling that sense of fear that you mention. And to be able to to see a light at the end of that tunnel that maybe I’m stronger than I think, right?
Becca: Oh my gosh. Absolutely. And I — that’s what I want to connect with right now because I so vividly remember and I actually shared a picture on Instagram. It was a vulnerable one like where I’m sitting on the floor and I’m just crying and I — I took a picture of that moment because I knew I needed to remember this. I wanted to document that this is what absolute broken feels like where I don’t even know how I can do this. I am different than everybody else. I’m not strong. I don’t have the skills. I am just going to always been in this dark place and I don’t know how to get out. I’ve been there and it is a process to get out and it’s individual for every person. But there is — there is light at the end of the tunnel, like you were saying, when you do the healing work. And healing is one of those things that I think people try and do on their own. I see this with depression and even in codependency where people just try and cope and figure out how to get through this on their own. And you — you talked about this recently with your Covid podcast about maladaptive coping and we aren’t able to heal until we have healthy ways of coping and part of that involves tools and not doing it alone. Having a therapist, your podcast was — and I’ll go more into that — was one of the biggest tools that helped, gave me language, and actionable things to do to do the work on myself. So, I think advice that I give to any woman listening that has — in a similar journey and is afraid is that give yourself the tools because you can’t do this alone. You can’t do this alone. It’s — you’re not meant to do it alone.
Kate: That’s — that’s so powerful Becca. As you’re saying, we’re not supposed to do any of this life thing alone to be honest. We built to live in communities and I think your advice is so pointed because when we can get those tools and resources to help lift us up, it makes such a difference.
Becca: It’s just the power also to you, instead of your circumstances, I think, when you do have those tools.
Kate: That is — I’m just like “Woah!” I’m a little mind blown because that is such a powerful statement. It shifts the power that you rather than your circumstances. Ah, so good. So, Becca you come back to Denver, you are at the point with your now ex husband, I assume you split officially when you get back to the States and start moving on with these sort of separate lives?
Becca: Yes.
Kate: You mentioned you were financially dependent on him and the idea of doing life on your own, I’m assuming, was just terrifying, How did you get through these initial steps?
Becca: In Germany, I moved up into our attic and I needed my own space and I created a cozy place to retreat. I knew that as I’m going through this I need to have — it’s not perfect — but I’m gonna have my little room with some plants and pictures and just make it like this is my space where I retreat and I can think and process because it was such a difficult time. And what I did is that’s when I discovered your podcast. It’s you and Mark Groves.I think it was just accidental just going on to the iTunes Podcast app and I found – I found Here To Thrive and I found Mark Groves — I don’t know if you know Mark Groves.
Kate: I don’t know Mark Groves.
Becca: Oh goodness. You will love him.
Kate: I need to go find him.
Becca: He’s fantastic. Oh my gosh. If you guys meet and have a conversation together, that’s going to be like the epitome of amazing.
Kate: I’m going to have to go to seek him out now. Mark Groves, I’m coming after you.
Becca: Yeah he’s – he’s amazing. So between his podcast and yours, it was, honestly I think, more powerful than therapy in a lot of ways because it’s so guided. So, you have a guide and you have this message being shared from you and your guess. But as the individual, you get to decide what you take away from that, and that’s what I did. I would be up in the attic, I had like a little exercise bike and it was actually really pretty. We had this view, we lived in the countryside in Germany. And so I just had this view of the forest and it was really, really pretty up there. And so I would just go on like this exercise bike or I’d go to walk out in the forest and listen to a podcast every single day and I binged. I would do like back to back podcast sometimes like just binging and what I would do is I would take a screenshot every time there was something that stuck with me because I do not have like a pen or paper and I would go back and relisten to it and and take notes and I would write down the take aways. I’ll quote find the resources that you would share or whoever your guess was. What their book was or their website. I’d follow them on Instagram. And so it was definitely this kind of this process that I created of – I have found you after you had already had a bunch of episodes so I would just kind of scroll through with what was resonating with me at that time. You have one about getting through difficult relationship and courage. I mean you hit on all the things that I needed to hear and so I would just select an episode that was speaking to me and then I would, yeah, I would take notes on it and journal. So, suring that period when I was living in Germany up in the attic, I learned from you journaling. I learned gratitude. I got my panda planner which is been life changing. The panda planner is a journal slash calendar. So they have a – in the beginning there’s the different months and then there’s a weekly section and there’s a daily section. And you also talked about this in your recent Covid podcast and I just loved it where being organized and having a structured kind of a schedule really creates such a sense of safety and getting out of your head and on the paper. And that’s not something I’d really ever done. So, I used my panda planner and I said “Okay, I have about six to nine months to get my life together and to prepare for this move to Colorado” and I broke it down by month and then I would break it down by week. So, I’d take my monthly overview of “Okay, these are the five things I want to do this month.” And then I would break that down by week and then by day. And so it took like this really massive huge overwhelming change that was happening in my life and I was able to break it down into so many smaller pieces that made it feel manageable.
Kate: Oh, I love that. You know that is totally up the line of my ideas so I love that you did it.
Becca: Yeah. And that was one of the things that I learned from you and I gained from you is taking something that’s really big and being able to break it up. So, for me the panda planner was a tool that supported the work I was doing with listening to the podcast and journaling. And I love the daily part of it because you write down three things that you’re grateful for and I know how important gratitude is. You’ve taught me gratitude and that is – gosh that’s life changing. A hundred percent life changing. So, you write down three things you’re grateful for, a daily affirmation, three things are looking forward to or you’re excited about, and then the five things that if this is all you do today, it’s successful. That’s it. Just five things That could be I’m gonna drink coffee today, I’m going to fold my laundry, you know whatever it is, it can be simple big stuff but you’re saying “This is what I’m able to achieve today. And you always feel like you’re getting something done when you do that and it’s not overwhelming.
Kate: I actually saw it on your Instagram the other day the panda planner and I was like oh, I need to get myself one of those. It does look amazing and I agree it has all of the things that I believe in and think it should be part of a daily routine if you are really putting some effort into personal development. So, I love hearing how you have used it.
Becca: Oh yeah, yeah. And, you know, and so each month you create a habit, so my first month, the habit was to use it because that is one of the things that dumps you is that you have to get into the habit of actually using this every day. So, that was my first habit for the month. And then it become something or this ritual where oh God, I need this. I need this for myself. I need my morning cup of coffee and I need to start my day with – and it’s a mindfulness activity in a way also. So, for me that was really powerful and something that I recommend to anybody that’s got some really big thing coming up in their life.
Kate: I want to hear more about where you’re at now. So, that was kind of getting to your America, starting to contemplate and prepare for standing on your own two feet for lack of a better way to put it, but obviously you have the responsibility of your kiddos and working out the financial stuff and, like you said now, I know you’re in Grad school, how has your life developed in these last couple years?
Becca: Oh gosh. So, with that planner — when I planned out my life for the six to nine months, I — I knew I have to have a career that would be financially secure and — that was really important to me, stability. And I wanted to do something that I was passionate about. And I remember I had this declaration I made literally to the universe, I said, “I don’t know how it’s going to happen. I don’t know when or where it looks like or how this is going to come, but I know I have to work with children and mental health. I just — I knew it, and life is interesting. Right when you make that declaration, which I now believe in so much in manifesting, that it comes together. You’re co-creator with God which that is a topic that I learned from you in a different podcast episode that you had with, I think her name was Elyse.
Kate: Ah, Santilli.
Becca: She was the one that — yeah, the vision board. When you realize that you’re a co-creator, that it’s not just sitting there and waiting for something to happen and being hopeful, it’s meeting in the middle and saying, “Gosh, I want this to happen, but I also need something higher and bigger than me to help make that happen.” And when you pay attention to — I think it’s your — you’re the one that says, the winks —
Kate: Yes, the soul links.
Becca: The soul links, yeah, and so that’s when you — when you communicate with those soul links, you meet that in the middle, that’s where, gosh, magic happens. And so, I had made this declaration that that this is what I was going to do, and long story short, led me to it was — it was really a miraculous way in how it happened. In Germany, I met a woman who is a board-certified behavior analyst. She was the only English-speaking board-certified behavior analyst in the entire country, and she happened to live, uh, within thirty minutes of me.
Kate: Of course you made it Becca. I just have to say, of course you made it because this is where it’s like divine intervention, right? Like that just things you couldn’t even have tried to organize if you had gone out of your way. It’s perfect.
Becca: That’s exactly what it was because also, the moment that I met her she was getting ready to move back to the States in six months, and it was — in that period of time that I got to know her, I became a registered behavior technician, which you need to have a board certified behavior analyst assessing one and sign off on that and get experience for, and so I had that period of time with her right before she left before I was moving to Colorado to get this done and to get some experience with her, and she answered everything about behavior analysis. And when I found out what behavior analysis is, and I was like, “Oh my God, this is it. This is what I need to do. This makes sense.” I think you’re familiar with Stephen Hayes.
Kate: Yes.
Becca: And an act — and that was part of why I really got into behavior analysis too. It’s because it’s geeking out on the science part of it, but we have our external behaviors that we can observe and measure. And then there’s the internal thing, the mentalistic, and so, that’s why I wanted to go into behavior analysis because I see that we have this direction going towards putting those two together, and I just fell in love with that. And so I had to finish my Bachelors before I could do my Masters program. My goal was to — okay I’m going to become a registered behavior technician, I’m going to finish my Bachelor’s degree. I took fifteen classes in nine months.
Kate: Woah.
Becca: Yeah, I can tell you can do as many classes as you can in twelve weeks, and I wasn’t working, and I was probably studying 60 to 80 hours a week just doing tons of like, research and papers and everything. So I finished my Bachelor’s. I got that certification, and then I knew that when we moved back to Colorado, I had two months to find a job and kind of get settled in. And this is where the vision board comes in and that podcast with — and I think her name’s Elyse?
Kate: Yeah, it’s Elyse Santilli.
Becca: Okay, yeah, that podcast with her where she talked about her vision board, and it sounds so like, yeah, whatever. You know, it sounds really fluffy, and I thought it was really cool, but I didn’t think that it would be something that I could actually do. And I decided, “You know Imma try it. I’m just going to see, you know, Imma — Imma try this vision board thing.” She was so convincing about the things that she was able to manifest into her life, and I’m like, “Okay, you know. She’s on Kate’s podcast, and she — it has worked for her. I mean, what do I have to lose?” And it’s a cool process because you really get to get clear on what it is you want in your life, and I created sections, and I made it journaling experience, so I knew, “Okay, in this area, career and finance, this is what I want to have. In love and relationship, this is what I want to have. In family, this is what I want to have. And in self love, this is what I want.” And every single thing on my vision board manifested within six months.
Kate: Ohhh.
Becca: And that was incredible. [giggle]
Kate: So, Becca, what did you bring into your life? Obviously, a job. You found a way.
Becca: I found a way, so in the career that I’m in right now, the — the positions, you usually have really unstable hours. You just worked evenings. Usually, have to work weekends. You know, hours aren’t guaranteed. Usually, there’s not a whole lot of benefits, so I was kind of worried on how I was going to do this with — with kids and my schedule and everything, but I found this is not a little soul link thing where the — I waited, and I applied to at least ten different companies before I found where I’m at now at the Shandy Clinic. And I actually had started a job at a different company, which is also really incredible. Our values really aligned. And I was working there for about a week, and I got a call from the Shandy Clinic because they wanted me to work at a different clinic. And I was — this is where my boundaries came in I’m like, you know, I’m not gonna drive forty minutes to work at that clinic. It sounds like an amazing opportunity, and I really like your company, but I really need to be working somewhere closer. And that was me having a boundary and not sacrificing. So I took the job with the other company, I worked there for a week. I got a call from the hiring manager at Shandy Clinic saying, “Hey, we got a position that’s a little bit closer to you, would you be interested?” And I told them no because I’ve started at this other company, and I really liked them, and I didn’t want to just leave them, and I felt really bad about it. But there was this moment where — about four days when I said no, I have to honor — I have to honor this. I — I really was interested in that company, of the clinic, it was more stable, and so I gave him a call back, and I said, “Hey, I’m — I’m interested in this position if it’s still available.” And he said, “Oh, man. Well, I didn’t hear back from you and so we actually — we filled it. However, we do have a position at the clinic”, that I actually wanted to be at.
Kate: [laugh]
Becca: And I’m like – “Can you start in a week?” And I’m like, “Oh my gosh.” And so he listed the benefits – guaranteed hours, paid time off, like tuition reimbursement, like everything that I couldn’t even believe that this job was happening. And it’s — it’s — it’s still an incredible opportunity. I work in a clinic where it’s not just behavior analysts. We work with speech language pathologists and physical therapists and occupational therapists, so I get so much experience with other disciplines that are connected and work with some of the most intelligent people that I’m gaining experience from and good hearted warm people and the clients that I serve are — it’s just everything. That was one of the most powerful thing I put on my vision board that I wanted. Good benefits, good hours, and to work with the best people in the field, and that happened.
Kate: That’s amazing. That is amazing, and also, I love the way you mentioned the boundaries thing like, I know that a previous version of me would be like, “Uh, I will bend, I will flex.” And no, it’s so much more powerful when we honor ourselves, right? And yeah, that is so good. I love how that all just came to be. When you reflect, Becca, on how you have transformed, and I think transformed is a fair word to use over these past years like, what are your reflections? Can you even believe where you’re at these days?
Becca: No, it’s surreal, and the reflection is I think that growth is a continuum, so it’s — it’s not just this magical healing that happens. I did a lot of work, but I’m still now faced with a different kind of challenge, and that never goes away. But what happened over the last few years is that I got completely broken. My whole entire shield and masks and everything that was around my outer self was completely shattered and broken to where it’s like, “Okay, here I am at the very raw core, and when you do that, you get to rebuild those layers in a way that’s healthier and — and how you want it to be if that makes sense. So you know, I think what happens is that as you grow up, you have your center, your soul, and who you are, and then life shapes you an experience that shape you, and it starts to create these layers. And these layers are not necessarily the ones that you would have wanted to create for yourself. For example, for me, it’s like, I’m not having a father figure in my life or having relationships that were unhealthy for me. And these layers that get built over the — over the things that happen to you, you don’t have control over those layers. But when you get completely shattered, and you have this moment that breaks you down, it is such a cursed in that moment, but it can become a blessing when you decide to slowly rebuild those layers based on who you want to become, and I think that’s what I’ve done, and I’m still doing. I think the layers that I’ve done work on are boundaries, self love, and being able to manifest, and believe in myself — these are all things I never, ever had before that I have now. And it’s been — it’s been a lot of work, and it still continues to be work. Boundaries are not easy. That’s probably one of the most difficult things to work on. That is really, really hard. So yeah, I think when I reflect, those are those are kind of the things I — I see where I’ve changed.
Kate: Becca, I am so glad that we got to have this conversation because there’s just so much that, in your story, just makes my heart so warm, and I know that there are gonna be so many listeners that can resonate with your story and see themselves in it. Awesome. Okay, sorry let’s switch it up, and you can start asking me some questions, Becca.
Becca: Okay.
Kate: By the way, I’m a little bit nervous ‘cause I have no idea what Becca’s gonna ask me.
Becca: You are? Oh my gosh, don’t.
Kate: I told her to just ask me anything, so here we go.
Becca: Yes, here we go. Well, first question is just — honestly, it’s holidays right now, and I wanted to know if you have any family traditions that you do for the holidays.
Kate: It is a great question, so if you guys have been listening for ever to the start of the podcasts, I tell my story right back at the very start, and I converted to Judaism when I was pregnant with my first son. So we celebrate Hanukkah, and that is coming up next week, I think actually. So we celebrate Hanukkah in our household. When I am with my family, which I can’t be this year because they’re still in New Zealand, we celebrate Christmas with them. And so those are our family traditions. I am aching a little bit this year that we can’t go home to spend Christmas with my family, and my boys have noticed it too, and so it’s a little bit — like my husband and I say — it’s a little bit of a dark season. We’re in Minnesota as well, and it’s literally dark, so we have hung up hell of a lot of holiday lights around our house to just put a little more sparkle into these days right now. So that’s — that’s what we do.
Becca: Yeah, that’s awesome. You know you talked about how you converted to Judaism. Did I say that right, Judaism?
Kate: Yeah, that works.
Becca: Okay, what led you to that decision?
Kate: I was — I had a phobia that was created, I will say, by religious teachings when I was only seven years old. So when I was seven years old, basically a Bible in school teacher in New Zealand — I went to a public school, but we had Bible in schools teachers — came and gave us a lesson, which you think they might have edited or watch what she was going to say to a bunch of seven year olds, but I’ve always been a super, super sensitive soul, let’s just say. And she mentioned Revelations and tried teaching Revelations to a seven year old. Basically, I came out of that discussion with a phobia around thunder and lightning because what I took with my little seven-year-old brain was that the world was gonna end, there was gonna be thunder and lightning, and anyone who did not believe in Jesus was going to hell. And my dad didn’t go to church, and so I thought I was going to be separated from him for eternity. And so when I think about why I chose to convert to Judaism, one of the biggest things for me was that I don’t believe there should be fair and religious teachings, and that obviously and clearly comes from my personal story, and that was debilitating for me as a young child and even as a teen and Judaism doesn’t have that. Judaism teaches that you should be a good person because you should be a good person. There is no promise of an afterlife. There is no promise of, you know, eternal glory. There is no promise of God giving you a high five for doing good things. It’s — you just should because you should. And that personally really, really resonated with me. So — I married my husband, [Saul?] and he is Jewish. So, I wouldn’t have come across Judaism without having been married to him because New Zealand, it’s like, there are no Jews in New Zealand. So I was introduced to Judaism because of my husband, but then once I understood more about the teachings, they just landed with me, and so that’s why I made the decision to convert.
Becca: Oh my gosh, that’s — I love learning this side of the you, a deeper — and I resonate with what you were saying as a child that — I learned a term, and I think that happens a lot stil and it’s spiritual abuse where you use spirituality and religion to instill fear and control, and yeah, to a seven year old, that is freaking terrifying.
Kate: It was freaking terrifying, right? Like I even as I talk about it now as the thirty-eight-year old woman sitting here, I can feel the fear in my body as I discussed that. You know like, that was a true phobia that I still can physically feel in my body just talking about it with you right now.
Becca: And in that — that moment, that short experience of that person sharing that — that was trauma, and that trauma really changed who you are during those — well, not — I don’t know that it changed who you are, but it changed your feelings and gave you anxiety, and that’s where I also resonate with you is because with spirituality, it was always a turn off, and I didn’t want to go anywhere near it because it was how you describe. It wasn’t aligned with what I actually believe in my heart.
Kate: So, yeah, Becca, what I would say is in terms of how do I spend the holidays, so I — if I am like checking a box on which religion I am, I’d check that I’m Jewish, but the reality is — I mean I’m not a great practicing at anything type of person. I’m a spiritual person. The practicing element, I’m not a religious person. I am a spiritual person, and so I may be officially Jewish, but you can tell from the podcast that I believe that there are so many different paths to our spirituality, and there is so many different paths to the magic that we cannot see, and whichever path works for you is where you should go.
Becca: Yeah, I — I love that. Your podcast helped me connect with spirituality, and that relationship with your higher power, God, however you want to define it, is so intimate, and I don’t — have you ever struggled with intimacy, like with relationships?
Kate: Oh, yeah. Hell yeah. So you talked about co-dependency. I was very, I would say just didn’t have a strong sense of self in my late teens and early twenties. And I was definitely very co-dependent. I looked for love outside of myself and had some unhealthy relationships and lost myself, to be honest. Came out in my like, out of my early twenties really, very unclear on who the hell I was or what the hell I wanted. And that massively, affects intimacy. I would say that if you don’t know yourself, it’s very hard to have that vulnerability and true intimacy with another. And I’ve been married now for twe– how long have I been married? [laugh]
Becca: [laugh]
Kate: I’ve been with my husband for twelve years. We’ve been married for a close to live in. We’ve been married for ten. And the other thing I would say is that the first two years of my marriage were the hottest years of my marriage because we will learning how to be as two individuals, who both had opinions, needs, and desires and find that balance of how to communicate because talking about have I had problems with intimacy? I used to be the person that would not communicate how I felt. I would suck it up, build resentment rather than have a difficult conversation. I would sweep it under the carpet until I got pissed off enough that I would just break up with the person.
Becca: Uh-hm.
Kate: And so for me in my marriage, I had to retrain a lot of those habits and turned towards the fire if you like and have the uncomfortable and difficult conversations. They were a part of making sure that I was seen and that I was making sure my voice was at the table because I couldn’t just bail on the marriage. I have kids, and that wasn’t my intentions, so like my previous relationship coping skills of like, “Pretend that’s not an issue, pretend that’s not an issue. Okay, now I’m done,” I realize they weren’t going to work in a marriage, and so I’m so grateful that I am married to the guy I am married to because it’s been a beautiful journey of us becoming stronger as a couple for these last ten years, for sure.
Becca: That segues into another question that I had for you is how did you know your husband was the one?
Kate: So I have one of these like, super cliche just – talk about soul links — like just knew-situations, and really just knew from the first night I met him which I don’t speak a lot about because I think it’s just a really unusual situation, to be honest. Basically, I met my husband at New Zealand. Uh, he’s American, and I am, obviously, a New Zealander. And we weren’t living in the same city. We’re introduced by a friend, and I kissed him the first night we met, and as soon as I kissed them, it was like, it was like in the energy jolt in my body of knowing this that I can’t even put into words. It was like movie magic, there should have been some stupid soundtrack in the background, sloppy, and so it was just — from there on, it just kind of his — just his pain. So it’s — it’s bizarre, but I would say that I think that there is no doubt that we have a soul connection, and I do believe in past lives, and there’s just no doubt in my mind that this is not the first lifetime that we’ve had to get it because knowing this, when I first met him like I’ve known him forever. And I — and I’ve known him for five hours was bizarre and unlike anything I’ve ever felt before.
Becca: That’s so special and amazing, and that’s a very lucky thing that I get to experience. That’s beautiful, I love it. It goes on to another question I have for you, I know you ask this to all of your guests, but what does the soul mean to you?
Kate: Oh, that is so good that you’re putting it back on me because I was not expecting this. I really like asking other people this question. What does the soul mean to me? I think that the soul is — is us. In all truth, I think that the soul is our true selves. I think it is that consciousness behind all of the noise that comes with living in a human body, with the — the mind chatter with the physicality with the emotions, there is this deep knowingness that will go on. That’s my best attempt at what I believe the soul is.
Becca: Yeah, I love that. That’s a powerful and tangible way to kind of express something that’s really abstract. I really like — I really appreciate that. Okay, next question, you see an incoming call on your phone coming from Kate from three years ago, why is she calling, and what would you tell her?
Kate: You know, I was just — I got stuck on that “you see an incoming call” because secret, Becca, I hate talking on the phone, so I see an incoming call, and I’m probably not going to answer it. Just I am — I am — I am that person that just looks at the phone, and I’m like, “Yeah, I don’t want to talk right now.” [laugh] Okay, so, but I will — I will answer call from myself from three years ago. Okay, so — I’m so —
Becca: Or it can be text. Maybe a text is — I’m a texter. Don’t call me, text me because then you have time to think about it. While with the phone call, you’re kind of put on the spot, right?
Kate: I’m just totally a texter as well. I feel like it’s kind of hilarious that I have a podcast because I feel like written word is way better for me. Can you say the question again because I got so distracted, Becca?
Becca: Okay, you have an incoming call from Kate three years ago or can be a text, and what is she contacting you for, and what would you tell her?
Kate: Oh, so me three years ago. I would want reassurance, so I think of myself three years ago, so let’s go to the end of 2017. What I didn’t know was that in July 2018, I was going to be diagnosed with breast cancer, and so I wouldn’t have known that yet, and I feel like in December 2017, I was — I was doing everything that I do now in my business. There wasn’t a lot that would be different in terms of the services I provide or that kind of stuff, but I am so much more confident as a person sitting here three years later than I was at that point. I was still, in many ways, I think tryna hustle for my worthiness and prove myself like, prove I’m good at this and prove that — I don’t know what — just prove something to someone, and so I think that — that three years ago, Katewould have been ringing me for reassurance, and I think what I would probably say to her from this vantage point would be that, “There’s gonna be some twists and turns coming up. I don’t want you to be worried, but I want you to know that it’s gonna be okay. And that anything that is going to happen to you is ultimately there to just to teach you what you need to learn and help you become an even more powerful teacher and guide and human, just a more grounded and empathic human. And so you’re going to be learning a lot over the next few years, but you’re going to be okay,” I think is what I would say to that version of myself.
Becca: Oh my gosh, I just — I can imagine how — how if you were actually able to get that message back then, how that would have been so reassuring, and that after you went through that experience, but you did end up getting that reassurance. You had to go through the journey to learn that, but, gosh, that’s — that’s really — I love — that’s powerful. That’s a good — I wish we could actually do that.
Kate: [laugh] Right. I mean breast cancer, for sure, it stripped me down, and what I would say is I didn’t expect the emotional backlash that I experienced after the physical healing. But the emotional element is where — you know, the emotional, the psychological, the making sense of the pieces has been the most amazing experience that I feel like I’m really starting to really just integrate now two and a half years later.
Becca: That’s, awesome. Yeah, it takes time to process that. Like I said earlier, the curse as a blessing, it takes — it takes time and a process, but it sounds like you really took away a lot from that experience, and it helps make you a better version of you.
Kate: For sure, I definitely think it did.
Becca: Okay, this is one that I really would like to hear your thoughts on, especially right now with social media and young girls. How do you define beauty?
Kate: Ugh, when you talk about social media and young girls — okay, so for me, beauty is absolutely nothing to do with what is outside of us. You know, there is that quote, “If we could see souls rather than faces, what would we see of each other?”
Becca: Oh.
Kate: And I am to be a beautiful soul. That is absolutely what I aim for, and I think if we could teach that lesson more to our girls — I wish — I wish I had someone highlighting that for me as a teenager. But what I did have instead was a pile of Girlfriend magazines from back in the nineties when I was a teenager and pictures of what perfection in physical form was supposed to look like, and that made me judge myself so harshly. And truth like if you met me — ‘cause I’ve been nosy about this — I’m 5’7 and I am like 130 pounds, like I’m not — I’m not a big human. [laugh] I’m like — and yet I — I thought I was wrong in every way as a teenager, and I just look back at that teenage version of myself, and I want to cry and just be like, “Oh my gosh, why cannot — why can’t you see the beautiful person that is standing in front of you? Like why — why do you see all of the imperfections and not all of the ways in which you’re perfect?” And so I’m worried that social media is the new version of the Girlfriend magazines that I was reading when I was a sixteen year old that convinced me that somehow I didn’t measure up, and I think — I think that’s dangerous. I think when we don’t have the maturity that it is very easy to fall into those traps of unrealistic comparisons. So I say all that to say I’m glad I don’t have a teenage girl is in an — and Becca, you’re obviously living this.
Becca: Yeah, yeah. It’s — when you described that, “Oh, why can’t you just love yourself?” I think, “Gosh, even — even a few years ago, that’s who I was, and there’s a lot of women that even like in their forties, fifties, sixties have that. It’s — there’s such a strong value put on beauty and worth.”
Kate: One of the things — when I talk about my breast cancer journey — one of the things that I’ve really struggled with, so I ended up having bilateral mastectomy with reconstruction and so yeah, it’s called reconstruction. But that means I have breast implants. And I always see it that I would never alter my body in any way, that I would love my body for what it was. And so I really struggled with the idea that how can I say I will love my body the way it is, but now I’m going to get breast implants? And truth be told, I was the person that, at times, had been like, “Why does a woman feel like she needs breast implants to feel beautiful? And why does a woman feel like she has to have botox to feel gorgeous?” And that was like a reckoning for me because yeah, I — I get to call mine reconstruction, but I could have chosen not to have reconstruction. I could have chosen to have a completely flat chest, and I didn’t do that, and so the other things I would say is I have soften in my belief. It’s okay. It’s okay to do something that makes you feel beautiful as long as you are not putting your whole worth on your beauty if that makes sense.
Becca: Absolutely. It’s like you become humbled on the rigidness that you kind of had, and it’s — it was a value though. You value — there was a value, but it also signifies that our values can evolve, and they’re not set in stone, so it’s like you you still honored your value of — of wanting to love yourself, but you were saying that you can sometimes wanting to feel beautiful in these ways is honoring, loving yourself, and that’s okay.
Kate: Yeah.
Becca: Yeah, if there’s a — if there’s a balance, and you know, it’s interesting because I — I go — after my divorce, I started putting myself first. I never did before, and I started, you know, getting my hair done and getting facials, and I’ve become friends with these people and the doctor that I go to — I do, I love botox. Oh my god, I swear by it. I absolutely love botox, and the woman I go to, we’re just like great friends, and we talk about inner beauty and outer beauty. Yeah, there’s definitely a balance that can be had there, and I think that’s really cool that you found that. And I am fearful of – of social media and the filters, and not just for girls but for boys and young boys expecting that that’s what a girl should look like and be at the — it’s very harmful, and hopefully, that conversation can start, really happening more that can be directed towards the youth, and getting it to resonate with them, “Hey, this — this is not actually real life.” And there’s — there’s actually some good influencers out there that put out their like, “Here’s what I look like in the morning. Here’s what I look like when I have makeup on. And both are real, and both are good.” I really appreciate all of those people.
Kate: For sure.
Becca: One last question, a more simple one — what are some songs on your playlist?
Kate: Oh, that is so good. My power anthem is Alicia Keys’ This Girl Is on Fire. So I play that every time I need like a, pick me up and feel strong. I also have Sara Bareilles’ Brave because everything I do, I do — as I said to someone recently — everything I do, I do shit scared. So, being brave and courage are values I have to embody constantly. What else is on my playlist? That one song that will get me dancing every time I hear it is that song “Shut Up and Dance with Me.” If you play that after I’ve had two glasses of wine, I’m gonna make you dance, and I don’t even like dancing, so it’s hilarious that that song makes me dance every time. Another song that I have been listening to more recently — look, I’m gonna pick up my phone, and and then I’ll be able to tell you more things. Is — oh my gosh, look, oh, I just got it. Here’s your 2020 Wrapped Up right now. Thank you, Spotify. What is on my — let’s just look at my most played songs. My 2020 playlist, I — here we go, these are the songs I’ve been listening to. This song “Grace” by Rachel Platten, I just adore that song. It’s been part of my healing journey. And I love this song “Ablaze” by Alanis Morissette as well, for all you mamas out there. The lyrics say that, “it’s our job to keep the lights, and now baby’s eyes ablaze,” which makes me super happy. Oh, and — and uh, Michael Franti and Spearhead’ “This World Is So Fucked Up (But I Ain’t Ever Giving Up On It).” It’s great. [laugh]
Becca: I may have to add that one, for sure.
Kate: Oh Becca, thank you so much. This has been so fun. I love the fact that that the question that almost stumped me the most was my own question.
Becca: Yeah, yeah. I think that was cool too.
